O teh irony.

[Stormy]

Anyone else find it insanely ironic that the entire movie is about Hiccup trying to tell everyone that they shouldn't kill dragons, but befriend them. Then in the end, Hiccup kills a dragon and it's celebrated?

It seems like a very confusing and ironic plotpoint to me, it's one of the very few things about the movie I didn't really like.

[CJ the Slightly Unhinged]

I think it was more a situation of "the dragons are attacking us for a reason, and we need to stop fighting them to find out why."

In the end, it turned out there was a bigger, badder dragon than all the rest that was bullying the other dragons. A common enemy they could band together against. So it wasn't hypocrisy. It was them finding out that maybe they weren't so different, in the end. They were just trying to survive.

[Stormy]

Yeah, but...

The big dragon was just trying to survive, too.

[CJ the Slightly Unhinged]

It obviously could move and get out on its own. It could've survived by doing its own hunting. Instead, it was bullying the other dragons to bring it food, and killing them if it wasn't satisfied. Kind of a protection racket, only with dragons.

[Stormy]

I agree that it could probably have survived hunting on its own if it could find enough to feed itself without crushing it just by walking or roaring, but then you have to remember what Astrid said- it's like the a bee hive. She's the queen and the others are the workers being controlled.

A queen bee can fly if she has to and leave the hive, but she doesn't. And we can't really know if they're being bullied into it or if all dragons are that way, flocking to a queen.

Something I think supports the theory is just for the fact that when Toothless heard the queen's 'signal' he was pulled towards the nest like a worker bee to a different queen not of his natural 'hive', which would also explain how Toothless was able to break the 'spell' and leave before getting eating by the 'queen', who sensed the intruder from an enemy 'hive'.

If that's the case then it circles back to that the dragon was only following its nature and not being a bully.

I'm speaking in bee terms, but really, they're more like a mix of bees and ants.

[Mothy]

Maybe not so much as a queen bee/ant though...I mean, seeing how terrified the other dragons seem to be of it, I kinda figure it's more like "abusive master and a whole messload of slaves." Or maybe some sort of mafia-type dealie. "You have to pay me for protection. Don't own up, you're out (dead)."

So...er--yeah, not so much as ironic, in my humble opinion. And now that I think about it, one of the arguments was "dragons as a species are not 'evil.'" But one could definitely argue that the big dragon was. So it's okay in this case.

(Sorry I'm not so coherent right now.)

[CJ the Slightly Unhinged]

I agree with you actually, Mothy. The other dragons were terrified of that thing (save Toothless, who didn't seem to be afraid of /anything/, really). I don't think the sound it was making compelled them to come, like a queen calling workers back to a nest, so much as it was "the sound that thing makes is how we find it so we can feed it and make sure it doesn't eat us dead."

It was a situation of "There are good people and good dragons, but there are bad people and bad dragons too."

[Stormy]

In any case, I still think the big dragon was a plot hole. As pointed out in the Bum Review, if just six dragons could take it down, why couldn't those countless dragons work to take it down? Or just fly away and never return? Considering how many there are, it'd be impossible to track every one of them down and eat them in revenge.

[CJ the Slightly Unhinged]

It could very well be that the other dragons didn't know. They were smart, but it may have never occurred to them that they could fight back. So far as they knew, this was the way things were, and that was that.

[Ditto the Devious]

Ya, kinda like Stockholmes(?) syndrom, brainwashing. They saw this as the only choose or die. They were terrified of the beast, and I'll bet not many dragons are as brave as Toothless and the other ridden dragons. And probably not as cunning either. The only reason Hiccup and Toothless won was because of a cunning trick by taking him HIGH into the sky, destroying his wings, then stay bravely in his strick rage and playing chicken with fire. I doubt any other dragons ever thought about this, let alone getting as close as they did.

And I think the call WAS something of a brainwashing call, forcing them to come. I doubt Toothless would have ver wanted to put Hiccup in a situation like that.

[Mothy]

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure the brainwashing may've ended once the dragon reached the volcano. Since Toothless hid once he was inside, rather than mindlessly drop Hiccup and Astrid (speaking of which, my eyes might have deceived me, but I swear I saw some humans in there too...)

Also, my theory on the 'plot-hole:" The other dragons probably never even tried. I mean, that thing was ENORMOUS, and as Ditto said too, maybe they just accepted it as an 'always has been, always will be" scenario.
And I always figured they did have the power to run away, but were too afraid to even try, much less fight back.

[Admin]

Personally, I think that it isn't ironic or a plot hole at all. The Red Death obviously terrified and forced the dragons to do it's bidding. It's kind of like (and sorry if this kicks anyone in the gut) a 16 year old living with an abusive parent. Technically, they CAN fight back, they CAN leave, but they don't know how to or are too afraid to. Maybe they were afraid of what might happen to them other wise, maybe they thought it would come after them (it obviously COULD), or maybe they were so used to it they didn't think of it anymore.

When they realized the Red Death was as big of a threat to them as well as the dragons, they had no choice but to try to kill it. If it had stayed the dragons would continue what they were doing.

Personally, I thought it was more like... she/he could control them with that sound it makes, forcing them to to do it's dirty work. Some dragons do it willingly and aren't effected, but others (like Toothless) must be controlled. The Red Death was taken down by a smart boy and his smart dragon, it probably used scare tactics to keep the other dragons from thinking of ways to get rid of it.

As for going against the "We shouldn't kill dragons" thing, that was still present. That thing was a danger to everyone, as i said. It's not like ignoring it would solve anything, they had to fight it. It's like people, there are good and bad people in the world. Some DO need to be put in their place. The Red Death is a dragon version of this.

[Welcome]

Hmmm... I'm agreeing with Ditto on this one. The super mother dragon was pretty much undone by Hiccup's tactics and Toothless' trust for him. So in a way, Super Mother Dragon was taken down by only 1 dragon and his boy. ^^' The others were there to use all the knowledge gained from Dragon Training (well, what we saw): shot limit, where the blind spot was, and Fishlegs and Snotlout also made noise in an attempt to confuse it.

Plus, basically my own spin on what's being said here:
Did you SEE the size of that dragon? The dragons that were stealing the food from the vikings of Berk would have been, pardon my language, shit scared of it. Not only that, it probably never occurred to them to fight back... or maybe they did try once. Maybe a long time ago they attempted to rebel against the super mother dragon (Jeez, what are you supposed to call it? Red Death? Green Death? I'll stick with super mother dragon for now...), only to have it turn around and kick their asses.

Ok, so that was just a random theory I just pulled out of my ass, but please, don't shoot me.

[venus]

Apr 4, 2010 18:53:27 GMT -5 CJ the Slightly Unhinged said:

I agree with you actually, Mothy. The other dragons were terrified of that thing (save Toothless, who didn't seem to be afraid of /anything/, really). "

Not true, there were a few points in the movie where Toothless was wearing a definite "OH CRAP" expression. Being chased by the Green Death was one of those points. Specifically during the part where Hiccup's trying to comfort him: "Stay with me buddy, we're good, just a little bit longer" Toothless looked pretty terrified.

[mokyn]

Many reviewers pointed out how weird that was as well, and while I'm not saying there's anything wrong with thinking that, it's a valid thing to be annoyed at, I still have my two cents to add.

Like others have said in posts above, that dragon is really big and a force to reckon with. It broke through a mountain for pete's sake! I wouldn't think of going up against that thing.

And to why one dragon and boy were able to defeat it? I don't know, maybe the dragons are like pikmin?

And to me, the sea dragon is still a central antagonist. Some movies have characters that seem like an antagonist, but they really aren't, and can be replaced/removed from the story. With the sea dragon, it was too big to be able to steal food for itself without being easily spotted, and might have been too old to go and get food for itself all the time. In the book, I think the dragon's were naturally afraid of the Green Death, so I assume that same thing is what happened in the movie. I mean, I could probably beat up a wrestler if I got some other people with me, but I probably wouldn't think of it right away until someone had a plan set up.

And the dragon is still causing all the problems within the story. If it didn't demand food from the others, then they wouldn't raid Berk, and the Vikings wouldn't need to fight back and be so tough, and Toothless wouldn't have had those trust issues, and Stoick and Hiccup may have had a chance to connect with each other.

Did any of that make sense? I'm operating on little sleep and writing school essays at the same time, so I'm not sure if I made myself clear.